You may dislike hearing this but your argument is very similar to that of Collective Shout. They argue that porn for straight men should not exist because they believe it's fuelling misogyny and encouraging the objectification of women, and you argue that TQ and presumably other games indulging in fantasies of sex transformation should not exist because you believe they are fuelling transphobia and the objectification of queer folk. We are not going to try and change your opinion or Collective Shout's opinion on any of this, but we think you'll find that within kink communities, yucking others' yums isn't very welcome, and the demographic of people consuming and enjoying such content may not actually be as straightforward as you thought it was, based on projecting your own personal tastes and assuming that everyone within your demographic would feel the same way. Furthermore, no, it's not rough porn creating sexists, it's not violent videogames creating thugs, and it's not TQ creating transphobes. They were already here, they're ironically more prevalent in countries where our content is banned, and in any case, studies have been unable to show a causal link. We're sorry that the world sucks right now, in fact more than sorry, we're angry, too, but we're not sorry that our game makes you feel uncomfortable. This is a sacred space of fetish and fantasy where anything between sane, enthusiastically consenting adults is not only permitted, but revered.
Than why have that disclaimer if you're not worried about the wrong crowd using your games to get their rocks off? And while I appreciate you trying to have solidarity with nonbinary folks like me, I think it's a stretch to say most WOULDN'T have a problem with your themes. Even if the game isn't creating problimatic people and attitudes, it's still beyond insensitive and insulting to the trans experience, mine included. And if you value consent so much, why do you lust after forced stuff? You saying a small part of you doesn't want that? So apologies if I don't buy your "we're sorry you feel that way" and quite frankly, it's a bit insulting. Isn't Aika nonbinary or the like? That's just sick in my opinion, we should all be in this together but your stance, let's be real here, is offputting to most non-cisgendered people, don't sugarcoat it. One last question: when people not in this community see mediums like this, and look at the kinds of people into these kinds of games, don't you think they're going to think that this is all just a sexual fetishes and that trans people are all just weirdos and are "asking to get degraded?" Fuel to the fire as they say? I eagerly await your response, if there is any.
> Than why have that disclaimer if you're not worried about the wrong crowd using your games to get their rocks off?
Disclaimers are so that people who would have the mood ruined by this stuff, don't try to get their rocks off and then encounter something that ruins their mood.
Assuming they aren't underage (or in a mental state where playing this game can be psychologically damaging), if someone can get their rocks off to this game, then they are - by definition - not part of 'the wrong crowd'. If they are in a mental state where playing this game would be damaging to their mental health, then they should have paid attention to the warning.
> Even if the game isn't creating problimatic people and attitudes, it's still beyond insensitive and insulting to the trans experience, mine included.
This is why the disclaimer exists. If you find it insulting, you can simply not look at it.
> And if you value consent so much, why do you lust after forced stuff?
Have you ever encountered a mean person in real life, and really really wanted to just punch them in the face?
Have you ever played an action game where you had a character that could destroy swarms of enemies with magic powers or weapons of some sort?
Would you consider people who do play such games as 'lusting after violence'?
Fantasy is separate from reality. You can fantasize about punching mean morons, and about blasting hoards of demonic aliens with plasma guns, while also thinking that it would be horrible for people to be allowed to assault each other just for being mean (imagine if 'they were mean to me' could be said in court to have charges dropped against you; now imagine what people could do to you if they knew such a thing worked), and also thinking it would be horrible for alien demons to actually invade reality, and that such extreme weapons should not be created because realistically they'd be created to be used against other human people.
In a game, you can always stop playing if something happens you don't consent to. You consented to playing the game, because if you didn't then you would not be playing the game. If someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to play the game, that is not the game's fault. That is the fault of the person holding a gun to your head to force you to play it.
> So apologies if I don't buy your "we're sorry you feel that way" and quite frankly, it's a bit insulting.
If you find that insulting, that says a lot more about you than it does about them.
> That's just sick in my opinion, we should all be in this together but your stance, let's be real here, is offputting to most non-cisgendered people, don't sugarcoat it.
Do you know what's sick? Trying to change art you don't like so that bigots who will hate the art no matter how it's changed will hate it slightly less, or have a slightly harder time using it as propaganda against LGBTQ+ people. In reality, they will treat anything with any relation to LGBTQ+ people as something to destroy.
It's sick because it acts like a sickness, a disease, within the community. It spreads a chilling effect, where people become afraid to express themselves freely. It encourages division within the community, and tears us apart from within.
We are all in this together, except for those of us who want to use our differences against us to divide us. Those that want to make us afraid to express our weird kinky selves, and instead feel compelled to look upstanding and non-problematic and thus marketable to a wider audience.
Such behavior does not make us stronger. It makes us weaker. It makes us more prone to being censored and marked as outcast freaks who shouldn't be allowed in the rest of society, because it drives us apart from each other.
We need to embrace our differences, celebrate them even, not try to stamp out anything that mainstream audiences would be uncomfortable with.
> One last question: when people not in this community see mediums like this, and look at the kinds of people into these kinds of games, don't you think they're going to think that this is all just a sexual fetishes and that trans people are all just weirdos and are "asking to get degraded?" Fuel to the fire as they say?
They already think this. They'd think this whether or not this game existed, or any other game like it. Hell, if we go back in time and we make it so that history is mostly the same, but somehow porn itself never existed and thus trans porn never existed, and trans people were exactly as SFW as cis people... Bigots against trans people would still think this about trans and non-binary people.
Sure, many of them will use games like this as 'proof' of their bullshit claims, but these games were never the reason why they believed such things to begin with. They found these games as a result of looking for evidence of their already-formed beliefs. If these games didn't exist, and porn didn't exist, and they had no proof? They would still believe what they do, and they would just find something else to use for 'proof'.
I already gave a more comprehensive example of this in one of my other replies to you.
> I eagerly await your response, if there is any.
They never needed to respond to you to begin with. They have no obligation to explain themselves to you.
In fact, the primary reason why I've responded to you, is that this is a topic that is dearly important to me. I'm actually pissed off at some of the replies you've gotten that claim there are 'more important issues in the world', when censorship of art is one of the most (though definitely not the most) important issues on the planet right now. I'd say it's definitely in the top 100 most horrific evils in modern times.
And you are perpetuating it. You are perpetuating horrific evil, and I happen to have a wide range of arguments against this particular form of evil.
There may be plenty of other commenters replying to you to defend this game, but you are one of the only ones who seems to be tirelessly replying to everyone. That puts them at a major disadvantage, but it also means that you put at least enough thought into your responses that you have to actually consider the arguments being made.
Even if your counter-arguments are often contradicting each other and it's very likely you are arguing in bad faith and have no intention of ever having your mind changed, your willingness to debate raises the chances that you are just severely misguided quite a bit.
So here I am, also willing to debate, despite how evil you appear to be to me.
Firstly, disagree with all your points. Secondly, you're acting like I was rude. Hey, guess what, I wasn't, merely giving my opinion and than people got defensive over it despite "wanting the community to feel inclusive." So no, don't buy it. And quite with YOUR passive-aggressive tone, if you're not trans IMO your opinion is less valid when it comes to these subjects. Do NOT mansplain it to me.
What do you mean by 'disagree with all your points'?
The very first point I bring up is that you misunderstood what the purpose of disclaimers are. The purpose of a disclaimer like that is very well understood and is not something to 'agree' or 'disagree' on, you either understand it or you don't.
If you think the disclaimer is for something else, you'll have to provide an analysis for why I'm wrong about its purpose. As an example template for such an analysis, I shall include one below for why I disagree with your definition.
Firstly, lets look at what the disclaimer can and can't do.
It can tell users what types of content are in the game, before they play the game. This gives users the chance to decide not to play the game, since they now know what sorts of content are in it. In this way, it gives players who play the game informed consent. That's about all it can actually do, though.
What it cannot do is prevent someone from playing the game. It also cannot hide what sort of content is in the game; it is explicitly designed to do the opposite, so that any types of content that someone might want to (or should) avoid are disclosed before they play it.
In short, it's incapable of filtering who plays the game, but it does make it possible for potential players to filter themselves.
So, lets look at the statement you made in your previous post:
> Than why have that disclaimer if you're not worried about the wrong crowd using your games to get their rocks off?
Lets say Shame Games did make the disclaimer because they were worried about the wrong crowd using their games to get their rocks off.
According to the premise of the statement, this group of people ('the wrong crowd') would apparently be able to 'get their rocks off' from the content of the game. If this were not the case, then there would be no worry.
So you are asserting that the purpose of the disclaimer is to prevent 'the wrong crowd' from 'getting their rocks off'. The only way that the game would help 'the wrong crowd' do this, is if 'the wrong crowd' played the game.
But we can already know for a fact that a disclaimer cannot prevent someone from playing the game, so that cannot be the purpose of the disclaimer.
Alternatively, perhaps 'get their rocks off' was a euphemism that actually means 'enjoy themselves' very loosely, and 'the wrong crowd' doesn't refer to players, but instead to people who want to spread hatred and bigotry against the LGBTQ+ community. In such a scenario, this 'wrong crowd' would 'enjoy themselves' by running a successful smear campaign against the LGBTQ+ community, in which they spread their hatred successfully.
While a bit of a stretch, that does seem to align with a few of the other things in your posts, so I figure I may as well address this possibility explicitly.
Under this scenario, your statement would be asserting that the purpose of the disclaimer is to prevent people bigoted against the LGBTQ+ community from using the game as ammunition against the LGBTQ+ community.
However, bigots will do whatever they can to run such smear campaigns, even claim that LGBTQ+ inclusive children's books that are 100% safe for work are literally porn being shown to children by force. That is not a hypothetical absurdist example either, that is something that has literally happened, with no exaggeration.
They will call things porn, even when they are not at all related to porn in any way, shape, or form. They will go to every possible length to label all porn as evil and to be abolished. They would do that with this game without even playing it, just looking at the name alone and labeling it obvious porn intended to brainwash people into becoming predators, even though the only true part of such a statement is that it's obvious porn.
It is not possible for a disclaimer to prevent or even diminish the impact of such bigots and their efforts to smear the entire LGBTQ+ community. And because it's not possible for a disclaimer to do that, it's impossible for that to be the purpose for such a disclaimer.
Now, it's also possible that you have meant some third way to interpret that particular sentence, but I cannot think of any other ways to interpret it. Feel free to respond with a clarification.
"Under this scenario, your statement would be asserting that the purpose of the disclaimer is to prevent people bigoted against the LGBTQ+ community from using the game as ammunition against the LGBTQ+ community.
However, bigots will do whatever they can to run such smear campaigns, even claim that LGBTQ+ inclusive children's books that are 100% safe for work are literally porn being shown to children by force. That is not a hypothetical absurdist example either, that is something that has literally happened, with no exaggeration."
By that logic, than there would be no point to the disclaimers really if it doesn't actually stop bigots from playing the game, only for the creator, Aika, to not have a guilty conscious than.
No, by that logic I prove that you do not know the purpose of the disclaimers. Just because you do not know the purpose does not mean there is no purpose.
In reality, the purpose is to warn people ahead of time what they might encounter in the game, and decide for themselves if they still want to play it.
For example, lets say that someone has actually been raped, and they are into kinky fantasy transformation scenarios as a way to reclaim their trauma for themselves.. But they still have PTSD from the idea of those transformation scenarios being forced on someone against their will. For them, if it's not consented to in-world, it can literally trigger a trauma-induced fight-or-flight panic mode.
The disclaimer is there to warn such people that such content is in the game. They can read the disclaimer, see that something in the game might trigger their PTSD, and decide not to play the game.
Firstly, I never said that. The word 'imagine' appears in my post twice, neither in such a context.
Secondly, I admit that does sound like the overall sort of thing I might have said at some point, so I'd like to emphasize the word 'imagine' for you.
Something can be hot to imagine, but horrifying and nauseating in real life. If you struggle to separate fiction and reality, such as by not being able to compartmentalize fictional sexual interests away from real life sexual interests, then you should not play games like Trap Quest. In fact, that's a sign that you should probably talk to a mental health professional.
My point is that you supposedly hate it but you fetishize it bro, and fine, but I have a hard time believing if that happened IRL and it ticked all the right buttons that you and many others here wouldn't hope at the chance to tame a sissy guy as a sex maid if you could get away with it. Not judging, but just be honest. Have a hard time beliving y'all wouldn't let it slip by IRL if it was hot/your fantasy. Tired of everyone pretending to be compassionate when in reality it's mostly because they're either occupied with other things or because we have laws. Unironically a total sissy argument you have.
Stop projecting, you act like sexual fantasies aren't just people coping with not being able to do it IRL. You sound just like Aika's woketarded disclaimer. Now if I told you to stuff it about your made-up religion you made up while high or some shit I'm the asshole, huh?
That last sentence is melting my heart ♥
It's unironically my religious belief that unusual, unique, and weird fetish art does more to further the purpose of the Universe than a lot of other things. It's hard to say just how much I agree with calling this a sacred space where fetishes and fantasy being enjoyed by consenting adults is revered.
It's very rare to see other people word it in that sort of way. Waayy too rare.
Stalking? I just looked at your comment history, bud. And bullshit, you've literally interjected your religious beliefs in MANY of this comments.
So you're on a autogynephilic fetish game and you're not into it? Why are you even here bro, this is like Mormons knocking on my door to spread the word about Christ.
I don't recall ever mentioning my career choice on this platform, but it's likely I did and simply have forgotten.
I mention religion in two comments, not counting comments where I merely refer to those other comments (such as this comment I'm typing right now).
I never said I'm not into the content of the game. I said what I did to refute the claim that my religion centers around 'Trans chasing'.
If you absolutely must know, I find the idea of myself being a cis guy, but being forced against my will to become a trans girl, to be hot. That's one of my kinks, and is why I like this game.
In real life, I kinda default to considering myself cis, but am pretty neutral on my own gender identity. As such, I adopt the gender identity that whoever I'm interacting with wants me to adopt for the duration of the interaction. Some friends of mine prefer to think of me as a girl, so for them I'm a girl; and others prefer to think of me as a boy, so for them I'm a boy. A select few prefer to think of me as a rubber sex doll, and with them I identify as a rubber sex doll.
It might sound strange for that to be part of my core identity, if it changes depending on who I'm interacting with.. But it is. I have often partaken in sexual roleplays online, and when I do I usually play as the gender/sex that the other person wishes I play as.. And over time I found that I deeply identify with that: of being what they wish me to be.
Anyway, when formulating my religious beliefs, that particular kink for fiction (being forced to become trans against my will) did not in any way influence how I formulated them. However, there are other, more taboo kinks for fiction that did influence how I formulated them. Those more taboo works of fiction aren't really related to the LGBTQ+ spectrum, though of course there is a bit of overlap in their communities.
And those two comments all it took to realize you're a loon, LOL.
"I find the idea of myself being a cis guy, but being forced against my will to become a trans girl, to be hot. That's one of my kinks, and is why I like this game." Don't even care particularly for that subject matter, but love how the stereotype of transwomen transitioning because of a fetish is being proven by a cis guy who, suprise, suprise, is fetishizing.transwomen or whatever they are. So now tell me you're not a chaser?
Also, loathe pronoun shit but what you just said you realize that you could just call yourself "non-binary" even if that's equally stupid? Also, unless you're bacteria you can't change your sex, LMAO. But honestly that's the least interesting thing about you.
"Anyway, when formulating my religious beliefs, that particular kink for fiction (being forced to become trans against my will) did not in any way influence how I formulated them." Press X to doubt.
"However, there are other, more taboo kinks for fiction that did influence how I formulated them. Those more taboo works of fiction aren't really related to the LGBTQ+ spectrum, though of course there is a bit of overlap in their communities." So they're related because of what overlapping implies, got you. May I ask just WHAT taboo and kinky degenerate gooner stuff you're into?
> So now tell me you're not a chaser?
Well, for one I have a boyfriend, so I think it would be pretty rude of me to chase after other people in general. Do I find trans women attractive in general? Sure, the same way that straight women find men attractive in general. I find men, women, trans men, trans women, etc. attractive, in general, but it takes more than sexual attraction for me to pursue someone as a partner. My boyfriend and I share a lot of common interests outside of kinks, and we mutually compliment each other in multiple different ways.
> Also, loathe pronoun shit but what you just said you realize that you could just call yourself "non-binary" even if that's equally stupid?
I prefer to be exact with my usage of language. There is probably some term for exactly what I am that is generally agreed upon by others who are like me, maybe something like 'wikigender' or 'dynagender' or whatever, but even more common terms like 'straight' can mean different things to different people (such as some people thinking a straight trans woman is attracted to men, and others thinking a straight trans women is attracted to women). Overall, I'd rather describe myself more precisely from the start and avoid any confusion.
> So they're related because of what overlapping implies, got you. May I ask just WHAT taboo and kinky degenerate gooner stuff you're into?
Sadly, payment processors get really upset with the content in question, so it would almost certainly be an Itch ToS violation to mention it. However, let me be very clear here: I am strictly on the fiction only side of those communities, and I am actively and vehemently against such things happening in real life. The reason I am in such communities is because they have saved the lives of more than one of my friends, for which I am incredibly grateful.
" 'wikigender' or 'dynagender' " you're a fucking loon man, no wonder people can't take people you seriously. So boyfriend, so you're a gay guy. Don't have to label yourself with this stupid made up gender shit man, it makes you look special, and unironically like a dumb sissy boy.
"Sadly, payment processors get really upset with the content in question, so it would almost certainly be an Itch ToS violation to mention it. However, let me be very clear here: I am strictly on the fiction only side of those communities, and I am actively and vehemently against such things happening in real life. The reason I am in such communities is because they have saved the lives of more than one of my friends, for which I am incredibly grateful."
Oh my goodness, every PDF files excuse. Guess it's not wrong if it's in fiction huh? And ah, gotcha, you're a good lapdog for payment processor censorship.
Honestly I had payment card companys, but one good thing to come out of it is people in the Alphabete Soup communities' projects getting less funding.